Oh heck. Assassins. (Mesmer thread.)

[SnipiousMax]

Originally Posted by Hella Good

Elite skills. Clearly doubt they will ditch their precious elite for this.

Just pointing out a theme in assassin skills. Whether or not they'll use this as they're elite remains to be seen, but the idea is that they have away around energy denial. This and other more conditional skills make it possible to start from zero energy and still make a nasty run at a spike. Again, I'm not saying it will work 100% of the time, but timing is everything right?

Originally Posted by hella good

Hex... they cannot even adequately cover up hexes... please... Even if we assume they can, our buddy here is bragging about putting 13 points in CS. Inbetween his daggers, CS, shadow arts, AND deadly arts, his points are going to be spread very very thin.

My arguements are my own. And I'm not driving at debating anyway, I just thought I'd open up the discussion with some skill descriptions.

And while a single Assassin may not be able to completely cover his own hexes, he won't be alone. And a skillfully played combo may not need to cover it for long, the point is it's there, and its a way around.

Originally Posted by Hella Good

Ok... I'm no Ele... nevermind the cause-Exhaustion attack.

You don't have to have exshaustion for this to work. It's an 'or' statement. Close range it's not that hard to hit at least one of your spells with an interrupt.

Originally Posted by Hella Good

And... you think I will be sitting there blinded for 30sec? If we assume this to be an useful skill we might as well start shaking about the Shadow Sig. I'm sure the Monk is taking a cigarette break.

They have a number of skills that cause blindness. This wouldnt' be that hard to pull off. And again, timing is everything. If the monk has been responding to pressure from a cripple shot/poison ranger, then it's not unlikely that the assassin will have a chance to get this combo off.

Originally Posted by Hella Good

*sigh*ok, and? You can strike every one in awhile through blindness and certain hexes, that concerns us how?

Idea is that distortion, a premium mesmer skill, one widely accepted and used to hold off warriors, and one that's been refrenced many times to point out why mesmers will have no problem with Assassins will not always work against them. The assassin doesn't have to bypass it long. That's the 'and?'.

Originally Posted by Hella Good

This is actually a decent attack but one of the few. Plus it has 12 sec recharge, so it won't be landing on you non-stop.

Idea here is that there are a 'few'. There is more to consider than merely dodging or tossing empathy. Since an assassin seems to be based on a attack/retreat concept. Attacking through empathy may even be possible.

Originally Posted by Francis Demeules

Just a thing, after this attack, bye Way of the Fox.

Right, one attack is enough to knock you down, interrupt you, remove a stance, remove an enchant, etc. One attack may be all they need to get a combo off. That's a very big thing Fancis.

I'm not trying to take the assassin side in the arguement that's ongoing in this thread, I just want to get back to the original theme. I don't believe we'll be able to counter Assasin's using the normal warrior-hate themes. I think we have to treat them more like...a mesmer or a ranger.

[Siren]

Originally Posted by Max

They have a number of skills that cause blindness. This wouldnt' be that hard to pull off. And again, timing is everything. If the monk has been responding to pressure from a cripple shot/poison ranger, then it's not unlikely that the assassin will have a chance to get this combo off.

Or for that matter, another Assassin pressuring the Monk. The likelihood of seeing two Assassins on a team in 8v8, one targeting the Monk(s) and the second targeting other spellcasters, is quite high. If the Monk-Killer Assassin is specced appropriately, that Monk will have to concentrate more on saving his own skin than taking an easily renewed Blind off of a Mesmer.

There's an interesting chance of Assassins becoming the prime CasterHate...possibly even replacing Mesmers. And if there's an A and Mes duo, working together for CasterHate...it'll be insane. There's stuff an A can do that the Mesmer can't. It goes the other way somewhat (Mesmer able to do things Assassins can't), but Assassins are interesting because they're basically a hybrid of Mesmer and Warrior, with some Necro thrown in for good measure. And they can Daze better than Rangers.

And the beauty of it is their prime interrupts and condition inflictors cost 5-10 energy, as opposed to Mesmer interrupts, which, excepting a handful of the new skills, are in the 15-20 range and can't be used as consecutively as Assassins.

[Hella Good]

I think the underlying sentiment of this thread is: "you are wrong, I'm right." Realising that we can ramble on for 10 more pages but we still won't go much further than we already have. Some people, including myself, believe Assas aren't a big deal and refuse to accept arguments about the supposed danger they pose to Mesmers; others, believe that Mesmers will have to devise radically new ways to counter the new threat.

The commonality comes from the fact that neither side can ground its arguments on more than 5 days of mixed experience. For all we know Factions might rewrite the books on how we do things. You can view this statement with scepticism (which is my position), or embrace it warmly. Either way limited experience and speculations is what we all share.

[Siren]

Originally Posted by Hella Good

I think the underlying sentiment of this thread is: "you are wrong, I'm right." Realising that we can ramble on for 10 more pages but we still won't go much further than we already have. Some people, including myself, believe Assas aren't a big deal and refuse to accept arguments about the supposed danger they pose to Mesmers; others, believe that Mesmers will have to devise radically new ways to counter the new threat.

The commonality comes from the fact that neither side can ground its arguments on more than 5 days of mixed experience. For all we know Factions might rewrite the books on how we do things. You can view this statement with scepticism (which is my position), or embrace it warmly. Either way limited experience and speculations is what we all share.

Do me a favor and at least address the points regarding attribute design, about the 10-11-10 layout.

Or how Critical Strikes isn't used to inflict damage, contrary to your popular belief.

Or the ways around e-denial that have been raised.

Or how things like Empathy won't worry good Assassins.

Or how Assassins are built to be debuffers in addition to absurdly powerful explosive spike damage.

Or possibly address the points regarding Exhaustion, and explain how the traditional Mesmer counters can mitigate it.

Especially if two Assassins have the opportunity to use Exhausting Failure on you consecutively. The order would go something like the following:

They approach you. You go into Distortion. One of them uses Way of the Fox (Shadow Arts) to interrupt/disable your Diversion or Spirit Shackles with Disrupting Stab (Dagger Mastery). They knock out your Distortion by either using Wild Blow from Warrior secondary, or their own Wild Strike (Dagger Mastery).

Now comes Temple Strike (Dagger Mastery). You're Dazed, Blinded and interrupted. If the Blind comes off, the second Assassion can hit you with Blinding Powder (Shadow Arts).

Try to cast again, and you'll get caught by Exhausting Failure (Dagger Mastery). Interrupt and Exhaustion.

If you try to cast again, the second Assassin can use Beguiling Haze (Shadow Arts). Another interrupt and more Exhaustion.

---

The above is a perfect-case scenario, obviously, but the fundamentals are there...and the fundamentals should be enough to get people to open their eyes. Anyone reading the above combination sees what Assassins will be capable of.

And if the Exhaustion stacks? No spellcaster will ever bash Assassins. lol. Insult them, curse them out, absolutely. But they'll never say Assassins are of no concern.

Also, if Way of the Fox affects more than the next skill, like "For X seconds, your next 1-5 skills cannot miss," targets using Distortion are in for a load of hurt.

[Francis Demeules]

Originally Posted by Siren

Or for that matter, another Assassin pressuring the Monk. The likelihood of seeing two Assassins on a team in 8v8, one targeting the Monk(s) and the second targeting other spellcasters, is quite high. If the Monk-Killer Assassin is specced appropriately, that Monk will have to concentrate more on saving his own skin than taking an easily renewed Blind off of a Mesmer.

There's an interesting chance of Assassins becoming the prime CasterHate...possibly even replacing Mesmers. And if there's an A and Mes duo, working together for CasterHate...it'll be insane. There's stuff an A can do that the Mesmer can't. It goes the other way somewhat (Mesmer able to do things Assassins can't), but Assassins are interesting because they're basically a hybrid of Mesmer and Warrior, with some Necro thrown in for good measure. And they can Daze better than Rangers.

And the beauty of it is their prime interrupts and condition inflictors cost 5-10 energy, as opposed to Mesmer interrupts, which, excepting a handful of the new skills, are in the 15-20 range and can't be used as consecutively as Assassins.

Problably CasterHate but remplacing Mesmers, I dont think so (I see your word possibly in Italic just in case). You see, if every Mesmers becomes Assassins, for example, there will be like...... 4-5 in melee and 3-4 in range. It gives an offensive team oriented and much stress for monk to always heals. Thats why mesmers are casters, to stay behind and be safe (Before telling about shadows steps, I dont want to know. I know what you're thinking too).

About hybrids
Ritualists are hybrid of Necro, Ele and Monk. Got remplaced Monks and Necro? I dont think so too.

Off course, both Lyssa's professions in duo will be insane. But how many do you think about when it will come popular? This gonna be the same and old routine until Chapter 3: Deception comes out (Just Kidding Anet ).

Just in case. Yes I will do an Assassin when Factions comes out and No, and I wont, about remplacing Mesmers to Assassins. If they got remplacing, they're will be useless, same thing for Warriors and necromancers. This will be the same things with Ritualists.

Another things: Hella Good..... Siren, please, no more Neverending War-Thread Duo! If you want to talk each other and argue, find something, somewhere else. Like Max had said, I want to return back to the normal thread with no flaming, trolling, arguing and slapping each other!

Edit: And if one of you want to talk to me personally without everyone want to know (afraid of flaming and others reasons), send me a message. Im always glad to try to help you (even with my poor english, I can do it). I can't always answer but at least, its a worth try about this thread.

Stay neutral everyone

-Malin-

[LightningHell]

Originally Posted by Siren

Yes, and I guarantee you that Assassins do energy management even better than Ether Prodigy

I really highly doubt it.

Originally Posted by Siren

That's an Assassin player speaking from experience.

Oxymoron.

[LightningHell]

Originally Posted by Siren

-snip-

So, there is no monk, there are no teammates. This is not a team, this is a 2v1 battle that you describe, of which the Mesmer can win but would have to build her skillbar before the "battle" (which, IMO, is no more than a duel).

Also, if Assassins ever replace Mesmers in Caster Hate, I am going to leave this game.

(Oops...we have to return to normal discussion...)

[Hella Good]

Originally Posted by Francis Demeules

Another things: Hella Good..... Siren, please, no more Neverending War-Thread Duo! If you want to talk each other and argue, find something, somewhere else. Like Max had said, I want to return back to the normal thread with no flaming, trolling, arguing and slapping each other!

I think my last post clearly favors no more argumentation. His last post, on the other hand, missed that point. I have decided to simply ignore whatever he has to say from this point on.

[Siren]

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I really highly doubt it.

Doubt all you want. You'll see what I'm talking about, come retail.

Oxymoron.

Not when I'm one of the only people here who has actually played Assassins first-hand and hasn't tried to construct flimsy "Assassins don't matter" arguments on "points" that are blatantly incorrect to anyone who's actually played Assassins first-hand. Sure, I've only had two weekends worth of experience playing Assassins.

But that's more time playing Assassins than anybody here has had.

I've been doing Assassin build design for a few weeks now, and that's sure as hell more time than anybody here has done.

I'm not the one completely mis-interpreting Critical Strikes, for example, because I have zero experience actually using it.

A statement like "An Assassin player speaking from experience" is an oxymoron? Hardly. Especially in the context of this discussion, where the critics of the profession know next-to-nothing about how the profession actually works.

Originally Posted by Lightning

So, there is no monk, there are no teammates. This is not a team, this is a 2v1 battle that you describe, of which the Mesmer can win but would have to build her skillbar before the "battle" (which, IMO, is no more than a duel).

Originally Posted by Siren in a previous post

The above is a perfect-case scenario, obviously, but the fundamentals are there...and the fundamentals should be enough to get people to open their eyes. Anyone reading the above combination sees what Assassins will be capable of.

You can't ignore the fundamental dangers of an attack skill combination like I described previously. I noted the "perfect-case" of such a scenario, and that "perfect-case" should not be used as the grounds on which you form a rebuttal. Assassins can cause Exhaustion. They can probably stack it if it's possible. And if they can, they can stack it in under 5 seconds. A combination like this can completely debilitate a caster in a matter of seconds...and inflict energy suppression that cannot be removed by anything other than the passage of time.

Some of us have seen the ideas from last year regarding Ele Exhaustion-inducing spells and Plague Touch. It's like that. Only we don't need Eles. We don't need to Exhaust ourselves. And we don't need Plague Touch. All we need is an opening for a single interrupt. That's not something to think about? That's not something that poses a threat to nearly every profession in the game?

If the Monk wants to get that Tag-team's attention, let him. I'm sure the Tag-team would love to inflict some 20-30 points of Exhaustion on a Monk whose max energy only runs in the low 50s.

Also, if Assassins ever replace Mesmers in Caster Hate, I am going to leave this game.

They'll give them a run for their money, Lightning. You should see the CasterHate ideas some Assassins are developing. They're positively evil.

[unholy guardian]

assiaisins ftw =) never have i played a class i truly like until they came out

they seem very powerful, and we will have to see if anet nerfs them before we can say who is going to replace who =p altouth i first liked my mesmer when i started i h8ed him and deleted him =o

time will tell all, so will a good build =]

[LightningHell]

Originally Posted by unholy guardian

assiaisins ftw =)

I will not agree with that unless you mean Ninjitsu-users.

[Kaanin]

Well I think One thing people are forgetting is the name, Assasins are what...Assassins, they wait for the opportune moment, just like the mesmer. Assassin is the Melee Mesmer, Deadly, but takes patience and timing.

I think Assassin will fall the way of the Mesmer, Under appreciated, and Underused, because people arnt patient and arnt smart. Everyone rushes into battle head on and dies. A smart Mesmer and smart Assassin wont, they will stalk their opponent waiting for the right moment to strike.

You all say Ineptitude, distortion, blah blah blah, but nothing will save you if an assassin lies in wait, and waits for you to open up a can of pain on someone then just when your in the heat of battle and least expecting it, they teleport next to you and nail you before you even have the chance to laydown anything, and its too late.

A good assassin will wait for an opponent to show a moment of weakness then strike hard and finish them. Just after that necro hit blood renual, right when you get ressurected, right before that monks saves your butt with a healing breeze, a good assassin will be there.

All your strategys will work on 90% of assassins out there, however, there will be a select few who are wise and will rip you open when your not looking.

[LightningHell]

Originally Posted by Kaanin

Blah blah blah (AND YES I MEAN BLAH)

The Assassin is undoubtedly like the Mesmer. However, YOU STILL HAVE TO BE IN CAST RANGE FOR YOUR FRIGGIN STUFF TO WORK.

1st-ly:
right when you get ressurected - You must have a crap healer who's even worse than the Healer Henchman.
healing breeze - YOU SERIOUS?

2nd-ly:
4 seconds is a HELL OF A LONG TIME to kill a squishy on the front.

[Hella Good]

I applaud the excitement and eagerness of prospective Assassins. Reminds me of a kid getting a new toy to play with and I think it's fine, it's not like it's not fine. No one is here to spoil this wonderful feeling. I actually encourage you to use the Assassin forum to theoricraft and devise as many devastating builds as you can imagine.

The rest of us here, I think, would in fact prefer going back to discussing how to handle you when the situation is less then peaceful.

[Francis Demeules]

Originally Posted by LightningHell

2nd-ly:
4 seconds is a HELL OF A LONG TIME to kill a squishy on the front.

Agree, one of the ppl I get last night (when I posted about to message me If they want to talk personal to not be flamed or show their build and discuss if its good or not) got an idea for slowing down their attacks. Like you said Hell, 4 seconds, its too long to kill someone and get out after that. Even that, this gives him/her 4 seconds of vulnerability. When players know about assassins tactics, they will be more cautious to them and the tactics will fail (knowing by experience during the Beta).

So the 4 seconds can be turn into a 10 seconds.

[SnipiousMax]

I think Sig of Humility will be a big Counter against assassins. Many of there important 'recovery' skills are elites. Elite attacks aside, the loss of a skill that makes up for loss of energy or health will leave the assassin in a very uncomfortable place.

[Hella Good]

I was playing a Hex master Necro the other day and I thought to myself, "That's really going to own Assas." Although I doubt that Mesmers will do Hex master builds RA/TA style in large games, I know for sure a lot of guilds in the top 100 do use the classic Life Siphon/Faint/Parasitic Necro. Spreading hexes around, a Hex master can overwhelm even the best hex removers. The build that I played, used Life Siphon, Faint, PB, Malaise, Suffering, Enfeeble, and OoB as elite. Not to mention stuff like Spites and IParasite that could potentially overwhelm an Assa. I also had the chance to use some of the new Necro hexes...

You can, of course, fast cast these but I doubt Mesmers will start doing that. I think what this means to us is that most likely we would have a very withered down Assa in our face. Slow attacks (or fast attacks while taking massive attack-triggered hex damage), reduced damage, heavy health degen are just a few of the things you could expect. I guess it's fair to say, like we already did, that apart from the Shacks, Empathy, or a few Illusion hexes, we won't need to be doing much to handle Assas, since most likely Necros are going to be taking care of that.

[LightningHell]

Sorry, but I have to burst it out. These past few days have been really funny with this in the back of my head.

Originally Posted by Siren

I saw the same kind of "Meh" attitude toward Mesmers as I'm seeing with Assassins currently.

Holy shit do you think Mesmers are underused in PvP?

[Francis Demeules]

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Holy shit do you think Mesmers are underused in PvP?

Let me guess................ Nah!

Originally Posted by Hella Good

I was playing a Hex master Necro the other day and I thought to myself, "That's really going to own Assas." Although I doubt that Mesmers will do Hex master builds RA/TA style in large games, I know for sure a lot of guilds in the top 100 do use the classic Life Siphon/Faint/Parasitic Necro. Spreading hexes around, a Hex master can overwhelm even the best hex removers. The build that I played, used Life Siphon, Faint, PB, Malaise, Suffering, Enfeeble, and OoB as elite. Not to mention stuff like Spites and IParasite that could potentially overwhelm an Assa. I also had the chance to use some of the new Necro hexes...

You can, of course, fast cast these but I doubt Mesmers will start doing that. I think what this means to us is that most likely we would have a very withered down Assa in our face. Slow attacks (or fast attacks while taking massive attack-triggered hex damage), reduced damage, heavy health degen are just a few of the things you could expect. I guess it's fair to say, like we already did, that apart from the Shacks, Empathy, or a few Illusion hexes, we won't need to be doing much to handle Assas, since most likely Necros are going to be taking care of that.

Well, like Necromancer Munne said in pre-searing:"Necro attacks on the weakness". Curse necro, in facts, has a great potential to make players really "Weak" and "Underpowered". Mix with Mesmers skills and done. For the Hex Mesmers/Necro

[LightningHell]

Originally Posted by Francis Demeules

For the Hex Mesmers/Necro

OMG HAX!